Insurance - what a rip-off!

[Laird_Scooby]

I run a pair of early 90's Rover 827s - one Sterling saloon auto and a Coupe auto, both of which are insured on classic policies. The Sterling policy was renewed a couple of months back at a premium of £193 or something very similar and i've just had a quote for the coupe of £189 as it is due this time next month, if not sooner.

So far so good. Now i have a project in mind, for which i need a dark coloured 800 saloon, preferably an 827 registered on 10/7/96 but that's pushing my luck to find one exactly like that so i settled on a 1995 (Oxford?) Blue 820SLi saloon as i have access to a complete 827SLi which i can use to change the relevant bits over (mainly the engine, box, front loom, ECUs etc) to make a 1995 827SLi as the base vehicle for my project. So i got a quote for insuring it as "Modified".....................

The cheapest was in the region of £1100 (£1091 rings a bell), the next one up was £10,597 and the one after was £13,000 and some odd quid! For those who don't know, the same brakes, suspension and steering (apart from the rack on 827s) is used across the range although when new different trim levels had different spring rates and a variety of anti-roll bar thicknesses, all mostly dependent on market, application, options selected - you get the idea?

What i'd like to know, bearing all this in mind, is how the hell do they justify a 6-700%+++ hike in the premium? Maybe if i was going silly and slapping twin turbos on it or something then a slightly loaded premium would be acceptable but using a standard (but bigger) engine from the same model range with the same running gear as they all use to create the "next model up" the range shouldn't IMHO warrant a loading of this factor.

Maybe a few of you could shed some light on this - perhaps you've fitted a 2.3 V6 engine into a Sierra 1.6 body or a 2.0 engine in a 1.3 Cavalier shell or perhaps converted a Series III XJ6 from a 3.4 manual to a 4.2 or even V12 5.3? How did you get on with insuring it after?

[Mitsuru]

Currently fitting a voyager v6 3.3L with it's matching 4 speed auto box into a mk1 neon.
Diabetic and disabled driver.
And my insurance is with http://grahamsykes.co.uk/

[Laird_Scooby]

Nice one, thanks - have you had a quote from them for your "upgraded" Neon? Think they were a 2.0 16V as standard weren't they?

I'm fairly lucky in that neither my disability or diabetes (Type 2) is DVLA-notifiable so the insurance doesn't have to be told. At least so far, the question has been "Do you have any conditions/disabilities that are notified to DVLA?" and the answer for me is no.

Do you have a project thread on your 3.3 V6 Neon?

[TerryG]

My RR is insured with Admiral. I pay more than that (in the £3-400 range when I renewed last from memory) but they know it has a bigger than standard engine, performance exhaust, factory option body kit and body coloured wheels) I have 11 years NCB but 2 non-fault accidents in the last 5 years. I think my premium went up by £25 over a standard car. Interestingly, putting SWMBO on it as a named driver brought it down by £75.

[Mitsuru]

My advise to you is to tell your insurance and the dvla and go off them and not a doctor or police!
Why? the police and doctors DO NOT know all the in's and out's of the dvla. And if your insurance
find out that you are diabetic and disabled, if you have an accident your screwed because your
insurance is void by the company!

The insurance company will need to know of any medical conditions wither they are minor or major
if you think otherwise you are the fool!

Rant over, but what you have stated about not needing to inform the insurance qualifys you as
possibly driving with fraudulent insurance cover or no insurance! And that is the way most insurance
companies will look at it and get out of stumping up for an accident!

My car maybe off the road but has always been fully insured with any mods notified by the insurance
even if the car is not running or drivable.

As for my Christine

Standard mk1 97 Chrysler Neon
2.0L SOHC inline 4 cylinder transverse engine, 3 speed hydraulic controlled 3 speed automatic(31th)

Engine and transmission replaced with
3301cc OHV V6 engine mounted transverse, 3 speed with overdrive (4 speed) electronically controlled
automatic transmission (41te) custom mounts, drive shafts, radiator and too much wiring!

http://practicallyclassics.phpbbhosts.c ... f=12&t=138

[Laird_Scooby]

First part of your response aka "the rant" - i whole-heartedly agree! Which is why i made my own enquiries via the DVLA website (there's a whole list on there of notifiable conditions/disabilities, caveats for whether you're Type 1 or 2 diabetic, need insulin regardless of type, ever suffered "hypos" etc) and neither my disability or my diabetes is notifiable. I have also double checked the wording not only on the proposal form but the policy etc and they are only interested in notifiable conditions. In fact, some years back when i tried telling them i had changed the back box for a duplex system and the front silencer for a tractor silencer they told me (rather curtly in fact) they didn't need to know about that.
Anyway, i digress - bottom line is all their documentation insists that with the facts as i have them, they don't need to know. Many moons ago i nearly lost my licence for (alleged) no insurance all because the muppets at Admiral had failed to file my change of vehicle and subsrquent cover note pending the new certificate in the correct file. Apparently it was found in someone elses file an hour into the courts day when they finally faxed the correct document to the court and i was obviously acquitted. It was a botty-clenching time for me, waiting for it though! Needless to say i won't go near Admiral for insurance these days, not that they are anywhere near competitive for me!

Back to your project thread, only really read the first page for now mainly because i'm half-asleep but i will read it properly later - it certainly looks like a heavy-duty conversion!

Something i forgot to mention when i gave the quote comparisons on my current cars and the potential project car is the cheapest quote for the 820 SLi as it stands came out at £670, between 4 & 5 times what i'm currently paying for a "born & bred" 827 so perhaps the 820 is "loaded" to start with.

[JPB]

Another forum raspberry here! Interestingly and also strangely; the condition that renders me entitled to abandon a car where the hell I like (subject to my not causing an obstruction but double yellows are fair game 99% of the time) and get the roomy spaces in the supermarket car park isn't the one - from my arsenal of such things - that's compulsorily notifiable to the DVLA and, as Laird Scooby did, I checked very, very thoroughly before getting insurance and have done so at every renewal since though, as the jalopies are on a key policy which features a radar-equipped modern as the daily driver (it's some four groups below the otherwise similar model that doesn't come with radar 'cos the poor saps think that would stop anyone crashing into it. Hah! The Klingon tractor beam draws them right in.. ), in practical terms being a "mobility impaired" (PC speak for a f'kin cripple these days) driver makes no difference whatsoever to my insurance cost though perversely, it does ramp up the buildings part of my home insurance as I've had to put in wetrooms and this affects the premium on the older property since part of the equipment meant that some ancient stonework had to come out and be replaced by a sort of civil engineering equivalent of the steel spaceframe so beloved of the supercar manufacturers.

Anyway, I have the solution for you, Laird Scooby: Sell the 827 ( ) to me at a ridiculously low price with a buyback clause written into the deal, I'll keep it exercised for you.

[Laird_Scooby]

You've picked up on another point the insurers use to beat your wallet with until it bleeds - modifications to buildings. Are you seriously likely to have an increased chance of fire, being burgled or even a flood just because of a wet-room installation? I can't see how it would alter the structural integrity in a negative way either as there is the "spaceframe chassis" that you describe to reinforce it.

As for selling the 827 John, the only one ever likely to be up for sale would be the "moody" 827 if i can't get cover at a sensible cost. In the "good ol' days", i could simply have told the insurance that it was an 827 with the wrong boot badge as trying to prove otherwise would have been too time consuming for them and many in fact did that sort of thing with a 2.0 engine in a Mk1/2 Escort then insured it as a Mexico/RS2000 or like i did with my first car that i wholly owned, simply insured it as a 2.0 XL Cortina. I didn't realise it had in fact started life as a 1.6 until after i traded it in, then put 2+2 together over the back axle and gearbox ratios and twigged why it accelerated like the clappers but ran out of grunt at about 85-90mph (pre-GATSO days obviously!). Also back then, mistakes on the V5 were much more common, i remember having cars that were registered as auto when they weren't or a different sized engine from what was in there from the factory and one i had was even registered as a GL when it should have been a GLS.

Maybe i should just look for a newer 827 with a blown engine (or gearbox) to implant the engine and box i have access to and then commence the project. At least i know i can get insured at a sensible cost on that!

[tractorman]

I don't know if it's still the same, but when I put a 1750 engine in the Maxi, the V5 came back with "Maxi 1500" as the model. As insurance people check the DVLA's records when you insure, they will probably spot the upgrade! The insurance company were happy enough with the upgrade and didn't alter the premium by more than a few quid (making it about the same as Father's 1750). I suppose the power gain wasn't quite so significant on the Maxi though!

It worked in reverse too - when I was buying the Passat, I rang the insurance and they asked for the model "GL." said I (having been told it was by the salesman). "Oh no it's not - it's an 'L'." said the insurance man, after checking. He then recalculated the premium - and saved me a few quid. The car salesman said that, as it had all the GL bits as optional extras, he reckoned it was a GL! If it wasn't £2K or so cheaper than list (for an 'L'), I might have made more of a fuss!

[Laird_Scooby]

When i said "The Good Ol' Days" i was referring to when the DVLA didn't exist - it was the DVLC and they didn't have centralised computer records like they do now so it was quite easy. For example, with my old Mk3 Cortina, the V5 aka Log Book said Model : Cortina XL and because the engine had been changed to a 2.0 and the change registered on the Log Book (twice, once was under my ownership as i thought i was replacing like for like) it showed the Engine Capacity as 1993cc. The badges on the wings said "1600" though and i just assumed the wings had been changed at some point.

What you say is right about insurance companies using DVLA data against the reg number to confirm the model these days but i've caught them out in a few mistakes - "That car doesn't exist sir", "That's a 5-speed manual sir", "Is that an import sir?" - NO, NO, NO!!! So i threatened to drive to their offices, aim the car at their main doors, wedge the throttle down and chuck it in "Drive". Oddly they soon found that the car existed, was in fact auto and definitely not an import!

As for Maxis, i've only experienced 2 for a total of 8 days. The first was a 1750 and was a loan car. Totally gutless, wallowed like a pregnant whale and was capable of drinking the National Oil Reserves dry faster than Oliver Reed could drink a brewery dry. Put another way, it did about 16mpg - on both oil and petrol! Thankfully i only had it 2 days then got my Ambassador back which did about 33mpg on petrol and i barely touched the oil at all! A few years later i needed transport in a hurry so bought a 1500 Maxi (on the basis there couldn't be two that were both that bad) in a delicate shade of Sandglow. This one also suffered hydrocarbon constipation - it couldn't pass a petrol station! It did 15mpg despite all the timing, plugs, points, carb etc - everything in fact being absolutely spot on. There were no leaks, it just drank voraciously! Mercifully its oil consumption was better than the loan car but i only kept it 6 days then swapped it for a VX2300 (facelifted Victor FE 2300) that did 26mpg at first, later managed about 29mpg when i fitted some twin carbs (amongst other bolt on goodies ) and improved its efficiency. The other thing the Maxis both had in common was the performance, or lack of! Neither would pull your granny off the toilet, never mind the skin off a rice pudding!