An alternative way to 11" disc upgrade?(or BIGGER brakes?)

[Mitsuru]

While the hayfever hits me mainly during the day, it means I prefer to be up during the night so a lot.
I start looking at different threads and started researching the brake upgrade qustions on the neon.
Which ahd me looking at the PT cruiser brake option which most people go for! Then at the 300c
calliper option, which as I am am member on LX forum had me looking at their big brake options(yes
even though they have what would be way to big for the neon but still very good info)

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=343569

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=266137

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthrea ... ton-Brakes

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthrea ... kit)/page2

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthrea ... ke-upgrade


So considering thar Chrysler was owned by Mercedes and there are some interchangeable parts
between the marks. Add that some people are using or experimenting between the different parts
available to them it is conceivable that there are more options available to those of us outside the
USA than was previously thought Just with the wrong brand written on them, and a few of those
a brembo! And as pointed out in one of the threads I have posted a link to above, to save money
brembo made the same caliper for a few different marks but put the marks name on them and gave
them a different pn (part Number) for each mark. The same 4 pot calliper used by Aston Martin on
the DB are used on the Jag xj6, xjs and other models. I can't be sure but it looks like MG tf, alfa r
omeo, Subaru impretsa to be very similar too but with the bolting tab built in where the jag/Aston
ones I've seen have it so the brackets can be change for further vehicles or used in the bremebo's
own kits!

The XJ6 (40?) uses 11.44 inch (290.8mm)brake discs, just forgetting the bolt pattern for the minute
but think about it for a minute. If the other marks using the same 4 pot brembo caliper have a similar
size brake disc to that it's not far off the standard PT cruiser disc 11 inch(280mm)isn't it!

Could it be possible to do only a little work on the standard mk1 neon hub so it takes a 4 pot calliper
with a standard 11" pt cruiser brake disc, rather than have to go through a full pt hub swap?

Jaguar XJ 12 H.E. Saloon 1981 -1992 Front Brake Disc
Brake Disc Diameter :284mm
Brake Discs Height :60.5mm
Stud / Holes : 5
Disc Type : Vented

And the funny thing is when I looked at the caliper for it was the same as brembo but labled LUCAS!!!!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAGUAR-XJ-12- ... 43c0baaa28

Will I be raiding the jags at the scrap yard, no because they aren't any in the local one but there usually
get one or 2 mercs, a good supply of European produced stock but very few if any american cars. But it
might be a good topic for discussion.

[Mitsuru]

Okay I got a dealn on a pair of front Brembo brake calipers off a Mercedes S320 CDI (w220)




Still with pad sensors attached, along with the brake hoses and pads




Brembo on one side Mercedes Benz decalled on the other




A comparison with a mk1 neon front caliper which has been in a tub which has been slowly submerged in water because of a leak in the tool shed roof!






From the top of the pad to the bottom of the pad and then the bottom of the caliper(calliper upside down in picture)




The bolt holes are a not only a bit further apart but the holes on the brembo calliper are bigger but threaded




The standard neonfront brake setup for comparison and that disc is 10"(26cm)




The braking area is about 2.25" of the disc




The Merc brembo calliper has what could be described as a spacer bar between the outer pad and the raised section on the disc when it sits in place.




With the spacer bar resting on the raised section on the 10" neon brake disc you can see how much mre the disc would need to be to use these callipers.










The Neon brake disc is being propped up and there is a bit of wood wedging the pads agaisnt the disc.




Side view for reference purposes and so I don't need to do it again, If I use something like these need a thicker set of discs!




Now I dug out one of the 16" VW steel rims to use on these photos for reference on fitment and ventilation. Bolt holes are lined up/






Bottom pad is touching the disc.






And as a reference thebar is straight and true and is leftover off making a braket






I carfully inverted the hole thing to check clearances between the wheel and caliper.








And here is the size of the bits of wood for the space above.








I tried the caliper at it's worst for fitment by having the disc touch the inner pad












With same setup as above, the end of the tape measure is on top of the pads on the calliper.



32cm diameter is the diameter for the disc foir this layout!






If it weren't for that spacer bar on the outside of the calliper, it looks like it could be used with a 11" brake disc!
I will be keeping my eye open for brembo calipers but of a better size and design. The method of fixing these to hub means a hub such as that used on a mk1 neon is unsuitable due to the holes being too far apart and too big. Also the neon's hub design makes it harder to think about attachment.
I tried to remove the pins holding the pads in the calliper with no luck, one will rotate but that's it!

[Richard Moss]

I'd get the car running before spending money and time on a brake upgrade.

[Mitsuru]

Richard i was posting because somebody asked me about upgrading brakes because i've
upgraded the engine and gearbox. I wasn't going to pass up on a cheap set of brembo
front callipers for £30 the pair and i can always resell them as they fit other cars.

But I took loads of photos to show the reasons something like this can't be just made up
as you go along and that there are loads of things you need to consider. I was using my
car as an example if i did it along the lines in the photos the wheels would be a good few
inches out the wheel arches.

Lord knows who it was who was asking/brow beating me about it, but hopefully the info I
have posted will make them see I know (roughly) what I'm doing and unless I ask for help
I don't need it! I can't remember which forum he said he was reading so I posted the info
on all the forums I'm running my build thread.

I was trying to make the opening post to show that I am not just limited to the manufacturers
badge on the front of the car, nor should anybody else! Example Jag, Austin, Morris and
triumph, how many of those parts that are on those cars interchangeable and upgrade certain
models? And the question mark has gone from the title?(or forgot it again)

[TerryG]

To anybody considering changes to safety related items on their vehicle. Please do not substitute random components from ebay as these are not part of your vehicle type approval, are untested and possibly uninsurable and dangerous
There are many companies offering tested components for most types of vehicle. If you do have a need for uprated brakes, speak to a specialist before clicking "buy it now" or visiting your local scrap yard.

[Luxobarge]

Seconded, every word is spot on here.

Of all the safety-related items on a car, brakes are probably one of the most important, and by modifying them without being an expert in braking engineering and having access to all the right rolling road test gear, you are endangering not only your own life, but the lives of others.

This of course only appllies to cars that actually run.....

We'd very much prefer that any advice that does not conform to this principle isn't posted on this forum, I hate to think of the consequences of anybody being hurt as a result of advice given here.....

Cheers!

[kevin]

Having dealt with a few cars with potential poor braking systems (the suzuki vitara being the worst ive had personally) I have found that by stripping the various working parts, replacing where needed (sliders etc) and then careful set up and adjustment (inc proper lubrication with the appropriate grease etc) they work fine.
The vitara itself (i used one extensively for green lane purposes) is notorious amongst off roaders for the poor rear drum/handbrake set up. however, if you get it all functioning correctly then adjust the automatic adjusters by reversing down a gradiant and applying the brake, it all works fine.
Last year, on my mx5, I upgraded the front brakes to drilled disks (looked pretty) and aftermarket high performance pads, rear left as standard. I changed the set up back to standard within the month as the aftermarket high performance kit would have been great for fast road/track but for everyday use they wouldnt get hot enough to perform. standard is usually fine as I found out.

i digress sorry.

kev

[Richard Moss]

It's not an area where I would encourage improvisation but if there is a well-trodden path to follow then I'd be happy enough. The old Princess-calipers-on-a-TR7 route is one example.

I'd agree with Kevin, though, in that many cars that have crap brakes actually only have brakes that are in need of servicing/overhaul. MGC brakes are supposed to be crap but are fine for road use if in good order

[rich.]

just a quick point, when you have fitted all this on will the wheels fit back on?, after all the nonsense with fitting the original wheels & odd hubcaps i would like to see what happens when its bolted in place..have you considered getting help or advice from the local motorsports dealer?
meanwhile here is something that might prove usefull if all else fails
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor

[Mitsuru]

I gave up trying to use a punch or bolt to get the pins out, dremel grinder bit and cut the pins in half instead
as I didn't want to damage the alloy casting bolted either side of the iron core.




Here is the reason why the pins wouldn't shift until I used a heavy plate placed on the pin in the calliper hole and
used a sledge on the plate! The metal band had rusted and jammed pin in place, the pin could turn in the band
but not be removed without BRUTE force!




Using the dremel grinder disc attachment(and a few discs) I went over one of the callipers removing the rust trying
to get it back to good metal.






A side by side of one as is, and the rust removed but I'm leaving the alloy parts alone on it.




A quick spray of paint to protect and make them look a lot neater than the rust crud callipers they looked like when
I got them! Yes I know it's dark green but I couldn't find the black, I will pick some up later in the week when out
food shopping. The green will do as a base coat.






By removing the pins and cleaning the callipers up means they are either ready to fit to my car or will be easier to
sell off as all the basic work for the next user has been done. I will make a start on the other when I have gotten
some new dremel discs and wire brushes.