Practically Classics Forum

Sadly 6 cyclists have lost their lives in the last 14 days just in London alone - all were involved in collisions with moving vehicles - but I remain unsurprised - Why you may ask ? well having lived in London for the last 20 odd years the mentality of drivers is something of a Monty Python sketch, the stunts pulled are jaw dropping - never have I seen such selfish driving attitudes - with patience rarely displayed.

Having said that the cyclists fair little better - with the majority acting as they are invincible, traffic lights are invisible, traveling up the inside of stationary HGV's & busses is accepted practice and this nonsense of commanding space by riding in the middle of the road with a vision that it makes the said cyclist more visible is just a red rag to the London driver who is already late for work by now.

Neither drivers or riders do themselves any justice - with drivers displaying zero tolerance for riders whilst cyclists flout traffic signals, dress has darth vader - no high vis clothing, helmet and more importantly no lights - a very small minority carry any insurance and still expect the motorist to respect them - whilst ever this continues the fatalities will continue and that is simply tragic.

For the past few months I have been travelling out of London and over to Gloucestershire taking the A40 / M40 west and then back on to the A40 and over the north Oxford ring road to Witney / Burford / Cirencester. Of note are the cyclists in this area the vast majority all have high vis clothing, helmets, lights and respect for the road and other users.

The so called London Mayor and his advisers have been in the media defending the fact that London is a safe cycle city - when it so is isn't - and the idiot advisor that was on Radio 5 last week that stating that there were no real change factor reason for the fatalities - obviously that advisor is blind and had not noted that in the last few weeks that the clocks had changed and the dark early evenings were upon us - dark early evenings vs cyclists that don't display lights and wear protective clothing vs Selfish London motorists = Tragedy

It's time that London took a leaf out of the Oxfordshire / Gloucestershire cyclists book

Threads like these have habit of turning nasty. There are lots of motorists, who know nothing about cycling, who seem to believe that cyclists should “Know their place” and defer to them (I believe it’s related to the old class thing). They will make reference to the fact that bicycles don’t pay road tax, yet don’t see this as a reason for them to defer, to the drivers of vehicles, that are subject to more road tax than their own (That argument is however a little harder to sustain, now that some cars, other than classics, are tax free).

As it happens, I don’t see anything wrong with cyclists having to have insurance, as members of http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/ or http://www.ctc.org.uk/ have, as part of their membership. The complication comes in enforcement (As bikes are not registered) and there is also the question of children riding bikes; who is responsible for their actions? I don’t know anything about equestrian matters but I suspect the same questions could be asked about children riding horses on the highway.

I think one of the problems, beyond that of the superiority issue, is that non cyclists tend to judge cycling according to their own abilities as cyclists. This leads them to see bikes as being ridden by people like them; in others words at little more than walking pace. This causes them to pull out in front of cyclists, assuming that the bike is travelling sufficiently slowly, to allow them time to do this. Proof of this is seen when you ride at night, with a good set of lights. To many non cyclists (I include in this people, who may have ridden a bike but never seriously; perhaps only as children), a bike light is an old “Ever Ready” torch on a lamp bracket and so when a light of 1000 lumens is seen approaching, the assumption is that it’s attached to a motorcycle. Approach a non lit junction at night, where you have the right of way, with a good set of lights and the chances of cars pulling out on you, are far reduced to the same situation in daytime.

However cyclists are far from blameless, whether they fall into the “Proper” cyclist or the “Seated pedestrian” category. Whilst the latter are more likely to ignore the Highway Code, I have seen plenty of more serious cyclists doing stupid things (And carrying no number plate seems to make them feel they won’t get caught). Cycling is a very fashion conscious business and I am sure some of them are more interested in the bling, than in cycling. A lot of them seem to like black clothing at the moment. Black is OK for your cycling trousers but I think you need something brighter on your upper body, if you are riding on the road. Road workers don’t wear bright yellow or orange jackets without good reason!! There are some club cyclists, who don’t appear to understand the rules about riding two abreast. It’s legal on an A road but nowhere else. The Highway Code also states that you should leave room between you and the vehicles in front, for an overtaking vehicle to pull in. Whilst it is true that some motorists, in underestimating the speed of bikes, will attempt to overtake in inappropriate situations, it also true that some groups of cyclists don’t use much discretion.

Lots of different groups will have chips of their shoulders, about other groups. These will be based on ignorance or on some bad experiences. I know lots of cyclists, who don’t like motorists (Even though they themselves own cars) and in many cases, it’s due to the appalling way they have been treated by motorists (Including drivers of vans, lorries and buses). However they can take this to extremes and just because some motorists drive badly, without insurance or whilst drunk, you can’t assume they all do it and treat them all with the kind of contempt, that such conduct may warrant (I have to admit to a tendancy, to assume that drivers, of certain types of cars, are likely to be brats ).

In short, you don’t need to be a pedestrian, a dog walker, a cyclist, a motor cyclist, car, van , lorry or bus driver etc, to do stupid things; for that you only need to be human. I think that a lack of personal discipline has much to do with this whole question. It seems that people are now used to doing as they like, from a young age and the uncontrolled brat of today, can be the arrogant road hog of tomorrow. We don’t seem to be a society any more; rather a collection of head strong, selfish and ill mannered individuals (And I can accept that often you have to fight fire with fire, so we all get dragged down to that level). It’s no wonder the roads are no longer pleasurable places to be, whether on two wheels or more. I consider myself to be very lucky, to live on the edge of a national park, where if you pick your times, quiet roads can still be found.

I can see Martin's point, though tend to see the other side of cyclists (ie the bad ones). I suspect a lot of it is to do with the usual thing - you never notice the good drivers (unless a BMW actually stops to let you out of a junction!); only the bad ones.

As is blindingly obvious, I also drive slow machines on the road and spend almost as much time looking behind to see what's coming as I do looking forwards. This gives me a chance to slow down as I approach twisty bits of the road and let other vehicles go past, so not slowing them down too much) and I pull in to the side and slow down if it helps others pass me more safely. Obviously, where it's a long straight and wide road, I don't bother apart from waving them past as I have the advantage of height and can see much further than many car drivers.

Other tractor drivers - especially with big machines and wide trailed equipment - seem to think they own the road and have the right to use most of it (forcing the car driver to go on the verges) and I often give them a sign of my disapproval when I've been stuck in a queue behind them!

We have a problem in that we live on the route of the "Cumbrian Coast Cycle route". This brings cycling clubs en masse just when we need to lead silage, hay and harvest - not that the cyclists are much of a problem if they are sensible (some seem to stop in the road to have a chat, check maps etc). However, there are the idiots that think that, because it is a "cycle route" they don't need to worry about other traffic.

I won't mention the ones who ride two abreast - on both sides of the road - around similar corners; or the one who tried to ride into the side of my car when I was overtaking (and my RH wheels were on the verge!). Never mind the ones that have a go at me because the dog isn't on a lead (even if it isn't on the road!) I fear that many don't think the Highway Code applies to anyone other than car drivers (unless they are driving their cars!).

No, not all cyclists are bad; I used to overtake the headmaster of the school where I worked most mornings (he rides the eight or nine miles to work every day) and he always keeps to his side of the road, is clearly visible (even in bad conditions) - and didn't know my car. He isn't unique by any means, but such riders rarely get mentioned!

I don't think it's a class-related thing - I would have thought common sense and self preservation would have made cyclists realise that, should something big and heavy hit them, it won't be the big heavy thing that gets damaged. It's a bit like when working with cattle - if a big angry bullock comes towards you at speed, you move out of the way! I'm not saying drivers are prefect, many never look further than the front of the bonnet (and rarely to the side of the car). I wonder how many cars hit other cars in a similar period. It's only because cars have so many safety features that drivers aren't maimed. Perhaps, instead of an air bag, a grenade should be in the steering wheel; that might improve the standard of driving!

Sadly, Boris isn't the "so-called" Mayor, he's the actual Mayor and this is far more worrying for anyone who has cause to drive in the capital of the South occasionally. I'm down & back semi regularly and maybe it's a matter of luck, but I've found cyclists' behaviour generally perfectly reasonable apart from their habit of ignoring traffic lights by using the footpaths illegally in order to circumvent the signals and even then, I can see how they do this as they enjoy better all round visibility than any other road user and I'd sooner have them making progress than sitting in the blind spot of whichever car I'm driving at the time since it's quite natural for other road users to assume that we all enjoy the luxury of that sort of visibility, so take breathtakingly stupid risks based on their ignorant assumption.

Odd but true: If someone is caught drunk in charge of a pedal cycle, then they're barred from riding their horse for a period that tends to run parallel with the penalty that a driver of a motor vehicle would face for the same offence. Yet strangely, this law - dating back to late Victorian time - doesn't specify that the offender may not continue to ride their pedal cycle.

JPB wrote:Odd but true: If someone is caught drunk in charge of a pedal cycle, then they're barred from riding their horse for a period that tends to run parallel with the penalty that a driver of a motor vehicle would face for the same offence. Yet strangely, this law - dating back to late Victorian time - doesn't specify that the offender may not continue to ride their pedal cycle.

I've never heard that but cycling to beat the breathalyser is nothing new (Even if the breathalyser doesn't go back to Victorian times). I suppose it reflects how seriously we really take cycling in this country, that the law is so lackadaisical. Left to me, anyone caught over the limit, on a bike, would get the same points on their licence (Assuming they had one), as if the had been in a car etc. It is an extremely foolish thing to do; as had been said, you've little protection on a bike, yet people do it. A couple of years ago, a local group (I haven't said what kind of group, as it depends on your point of view) were on a cycling pub crawl. Between one stopping off point and the next, one of their number clipped the back wheel, of the bike in front and veered into the path of an oncoming VW Golf. The cyclist, who was also an off duty Policeman, was killed (Oddly enough, when reported in the press, no mention was made of the fact that they had been drinking).

was the golf driver held responsible?

I don't believe he was put under the spotlight but it can't have been very nice for the poor old chap (Who was 77 years old). My sympathies are with him and the bereaved

Nearly all of these fatalities has had the same common denominator- a left turning HGV....now this is a problem that despite everyones best efforts some people have sadly not got the message. Nearly every HGV I see in London these days has a sticker on the rear left warning cycliss to keep away but sadly all too many people still do not realise the danger they put themselves in by filtering on the left ne3ar aq junction, and this isn't the seated pedestrian type cyclist, they're generally on the pavement- this is cyclists who are commuting day in day out who really should know better. I think the temptation is just too great, they've done it so many times and got away with it, the truck's not indicating......tragedy awaits.

In central london in particular there are probably an equal number of cars and ikes on the road at the same time these days- education is needed all round. There was a demo by cyclists at Bow flyover, which is on the Boris superhighway and is dangerous- blue paint does not keep straying vehicles out- what was interesting was that one of the cyclists demonstrating was also a HGV driver, minus the layer of fat, and he made the point that no matter how careful he is, no matter how many mirrors, cameras, and shouty left turn loudspeakers he has, and no matter how vigilant and switched on the driver is, he cannot see all of the left side of his trailer when he turns, and this is the issue-some cyclists still have not grasped that their survival is in their own hands and no-one elses.

The jumping red light issue is a different thing- I'm not saying it's right but in some cases when cycling in London it's the safest option. During the olympics when virtually all on street parking was suspended for non residents in East London, I was driving part way with the bike in the back, and cyling the last few miles. There were two sets of lights that I would cross on red for my own safety-both where left filter lanes would have left me sat on red in the middle of the road in front of trigger happy beemer drivers It ws safer to just cross on the red when clear. I have to say I don't get a great deal of pleasure fron urban cycling, I like the Essex lanes, despite the somewhat ragged surfacing.

Funnily enough I was chatting about this very subject with a Met police officer the other day. Now I will say, no one side id better or worse than any others, those sat behind a wheel rather than a handlebar do tend to stick to the Highway Code and not run red lights.

As a part time lorryist, it is your worst nightmare when turning left to suddenly see someone thinking they can get round and down the inside of you as the front is several feet away from the kerb, but don't consider that the cut in at the rear is so severe there are mere inches between kerb and back wheels, and I also include car drivers in this. There was one particular left turn I had to make that you had to be in the right hand lane to avoid mounting the pavement and taking out the traffic light, that you could pretty much guarantee you'd get someone coming up the inside, despite indicators going, and then seeing the realisation dawn that a 28 tonne trucks back wheels are just about to rearrange their bonnet because they have no brains.

I used to hate (well still do) driving in London, as not only do you have to keep eyes open for errant buses and taxis, there are far too many cyclists who think they can get away with breaking the law as they carry no identification like number plates, and as my Met guy said, they know the likelihood of being caught is pretty much zero, as once they've taken your mirror off, they're gone before you've even had chance to get out the car. He did regale the story of one such cyclist who thought he was above the law, as after he successfully managed to outrun 2 coppers on foot after being told to stop several times, didn't count on the police motorcyclist who was in the next road, and alas, his 2 legs were no match for a motorbike. The book was, apparently, well and truly thrown for him to catch

Insurance doesn't save lives.

Education and mutual respect are all that is needed.