next generation classic owners

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Martin Evans
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Re: next generation classic owners

#21 Post by Martin Evans »

OK, so moderns are treated like white goods by most owners
does rather answer the question Why won't spares be available for more modern vehicles?. Yes the majority of run of the mill cars have always been scrapped; years ago because they were rusty or clapped out (Or shunted) and today because they are not worth repairing (Or shunted), often because a complex electronic item has failed (Even if the rest of the car is sound). I'd say the stock of the average scrap yard is relatively newer, than it was thirty years ago and apart from the failed part, generally more sound.

Spares wont be available because there will be no demand and I suggest that it will be more difficult to replicate or repair componentry (Though I know we have amongst us, some who claim they can rebuild an ECU, with a multimeter and a pair of scissors). Plastic trim etc is also harder to repair or replicate. I wouldn't say it's any longer a matter of wait and see; you just don't see many 80s cars at events and I have no reason to suppose that 90s or later ones will fare any better. I was talking to an AA man recently, who mentioned the responsibilities that manufacturers have, regarding end of vehicle life. This, combined with the fact that cars are very much designed with production in mind, as opposed to repair, he feels will see more cars being leased for their service life (Perhaps by the same driver) and then "Recycled". This goes a stage further than the used cars dealers, who do my MOTs foresee (They have moved from being a small repair garage, established at the top of a hill in 1938, to selling newish used cars); they see cars being supplied by the likes of Tesco in the future, very much as they supply white goods (i.e. When it packs up, they dispose of the old one for you) and not much long term future in their business.

The MGF is perhaps one that is doing better but whilst not an expensive car, you might say it's not run of the mill. I don't doubt it's benefiting from the MGB factor and wonder had it not been for the furore, that followed the closure of Abingdon, whether the MGF would ever have happened (Oddly enough I don’t think the passing of the TR7 or the Spitfire was as well publicised; was that simply down to Roche Bentley?). I think there are about 500000 historic vehicles on British roads (I’m not sure how that is defined vis a vis 1972), so a sizeable minority. Roughly 35000 (Inc SORN) of those are MGB/Cs and 12750 are Midgets. As an example, 5500 are Midget 1500s, of which 50000 or so were made but since over half of them went overseas, that leaves over 20% of home cars still showing on the radar (Just like some MGB, some late model Midgets were “Preserved” from new and you still see some come up for sale with 20000 on the clock). That’s why you can still buy spares for them and why you can buy spares for the 20500 or so Morris Minors (Though it seems some have disappeared in recent years; I’m shocked at how many but I suppose being relatively low value, rough ones will have been broken for bits)) that are still about.

I don’t really know whether age of vehicles is necessarily related to that of it’s driver. I’ve always liked the pre war stuff. In my family, only my grandfather had pre war stuff (Up until 1946 and post war stuff from 1949), so I never saw any of it. At the VSCC meetings, you see people of all ages, though with the prices of some of that stuff, it’s a bit beyond your average 21 year old.

Since this is a classic car forum, it’s to be expected that old cars will be the focus of attention. I make no bones that my interest in cars did come up against a wall, some time during the 1980s, beyond which not much held any interest for me (You might say the first one hundred years interests me). It is generally accepted that classic cars are those over twenty five years old and I accept that, even though that brings us to 1988, when there wasn’t much being made that was then of any interest to me (There were cars made long before that, which I wouldn’t want, so just because a car is old, doesn’t mean I have to like it). I suppose you could say that if old Vectras are your thing fine but for the time being, you’ll find them in Auto Trader, not the classic car press.
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MG Midget 1500, MGB GT V8, Morris Minor Traveller 1275, MG Midget 1275 & too many bicycles.
mr rusty
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Re: next generation classic owners

#22 Post by mr rusty »

It's surprising what is available for oldish 'moderns'....anything with a K series is well catered for mechanically because of it's usage in so many sporting motors, and people like eurocarparts carry a lot of stuff for what would be considered for want of a better description run of the mill bangers. Any good local spoares shop usually has a good stock- I get stuff for the Vitesse from one, they didn't bat an eyelid when I asked for a starter motor for a 45 year old car,a look in the catalogue and in next day,for a lot less than the well known specialists were asking and no doubt from the same supplier.....

When i had my Crayford Allegro, Allegros were most definately not considered classic cars, and I broke a lot of them up for next to nothing- I sent one to the scrappers after I cut the rear boot floor out of it, they were that worthless, when it was destroyed by a blind pensioner in an Escort :cry: the owners club had started, and they were vanishing from scrapyards and the road- the mark 2 Escort was in the same boat at the time, I would newver have thought that either of these would become a classic and appear at shows' I bought an 1100 Mk1 Fiesta as transport after the Crayford was killed, another worthless clunker now appearing as an accepted and sought after classic, not a bad drive that one..it was followed by an absolutely superb Pug 205XS, the economy gti, no I, but twin webers instead, and steels rather than alloys, but again, at the time, worthless. I only sold that one on because the seats were narrow and it had orange instrument lighting which I detest :evil: ...again, now any sporty 205 is a classic in my eyes, most of them ended up either wrapped around trees or trhrashed to death.

So, who knows what survivors will be around as classics- we don't know and that's the fun of it.
1968 Triumph Vitesse Mk1 2 litre convertible, Junior Miss rusty has a 1989 998cc Mk2 Metro, Mrs Rusty has a modern common rail diesel thing.
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TerryG
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Re: next generation classic owners

#23 Post by TerryG »

The same can be said for anything with a Zetec engine in it. No problem at all getting spares whether it is a 1994 Mondeo or a 2001 Focus. My local spares place usually has bits on the shelf. It's replacement, the duratec was only introduces late in 2001 but the same applies so far. (Can you tell I like fords?)
My more modern older car is very well catered for to the point that the only items I can't buy new are bits of trim which is annoying as they are the only bits I want to replace at the moment.
Understeer: when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer: when you hit the wall with the back of the car.
Horsepower: how fast you hit the wall.
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tractorman
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Re: next generation classic owners

#24 Post by tractorman »

I fear trim parts are difficult to find for most "older" cars - be they 1901 or 2001! I fear that, as trim parts tend to be slow moving and have many variations (colour, material and holes), it would cost a fortune to keep a full range. Just think of the number of variations that Minors had over the years! Even something as mundane as a Mk2 Golf would have a number of different finishes and they tended to look much the same throughout the range!

Actually, it is probably going to get easier to get dashboards etc for more modern cars as trim is being made with 3D printers, meaning that manufacturers can make them to order using saved drawing files. VW did a similar thing when the dashboard PCB failed on the Passat: there was such a range of PCBs that it is easier to make them on demand rather than stockpile a variety of ones that may never be needed.

Perhaps one of the major changes to classics won't come from the cars, but the owners. Where I would have stripped an engine, changed a wing and done all sorts to a car to keep it running in the seventies, I suspect that many owners aren't able or interested enough to do that; especially when they can go out and get another good car for less than it would cost to do a "major" repair. Even more so while scrap values are high enough to make a swap comparatively cheap. Perhaps this is why the tally for Minors is going down?

Yes, there are some who are interested and have the skills, but I fear that they are in the minority now. To be honest, I don't mind letting the local garage do much of the repair and service on my car these days. I only change the oil and various filters and do some occasional repairs (not often on a VW - allegedly!!) as I much prefer to "play" mechanics on the tractors, where I don't have to crawl around on my back (or knees) or have double-joints to get at things under the bonnet and I can leave them for a few weeks if I lose interest - or patience. Also, unlike the Minors and Minis that needed service at 3,000 miles, I need only change the oil once a year and don't need a grease gun at all (for the cars that is - the tractors are smothered in grease nipples!).

As for electronics causing problems, I suspect that it is a myth perpetrated by those who don't/won't understand them! The only electrical faults I have had have been sensors failing and a PCB fault (on the 96 Passat's dashboard). OK, some early "computers" were prone to corrosion and much more delicate in construction, but modern stuff is much more durable. Both my last two cars "died" because of engine problems, where repair costs would be worth more than the high mileage cars were worth. The current (2008) Golf has 115K miles and still going well. Most of the older cars that friends have scrapped have been scrapped because of high repair costs (engine/gearbox etc), not because there was a computer fault. If electronics/computers are so dangerous, I wonder why aeroplanes are allowed to use them - or, even more frighteningly, chemical and nuclear plants are allowed to run by them, sometimes on unattended plant in extremely hazardous areas!
mr rusty
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Re: next generation classic owners

#25 Post by mr rusty »

It's interesting that the electronic bits perceived by many classic owners as frightening and less reliable are being looted from late 80's early 90's Fords in particular to bolt onto classics to make them more reliable! I have no interest in megajolt/squirt but it's these bits that are making it possible, edis parts, throttle bodies, etc, rather than strictly mechanical oily parts. It's a funny old world!
1968 Triumph Vitesse Mk1 2 litre convertible, Junior Miss rusty has a 1989 998cc Mk2 Metro, Mrs Rusty has a modern common rail diesel thing.
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Mitsuru
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Re: next generation classic owners

#26 Post by Mitsuru »

Mr Rusty if people knew how simple the electronics are on the neon mk1
they would be next on the loot list for updating 4 pots :lol:

After that the computers/ecu's and looms and sensors got seriously more
complicated. So I can see most vehicles from 2000 and newer not being
on the road for that reason.
I'm Diabetic,& disabled BUT!! NOT DEAD YET!!
suffolkpete
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Re: next generation classic owners

#27 Post by suffolkpete »

It's not really realistic to talk nostalgically of eighties and nineties cars. The cars in production now have more ECUs, higher levels of integration and much greater use of custom circuitry. The issue is not one of reliability, modern electronics are highly reliable, but the problem is the lack of expertise in diagnosis and the cost of replacement modules. The cost of taking a six or seven year old car to someone with the right diagnostic equipment and have them try and fix the fault by what seems to be the common method of replacing bits at random, starting with the most expensive first, will probably result in the car being scrapped. Even main dealers don't seem to know what they are doing, I heard recently of a case where it took three days to program a new key fob for a Daimler. The result of all this is that few cars will make it past the banger stage and those that do will be too few in numbers to justify the re-manufacture of parts.
1974 Rover 2200 SC
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mr rusty
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Re: next generation classic owners

#28 Post by mr rusty »

but the problem is the lack of expertise in diagnosis and the cost of replacement modules.
...but that's essentially an industry training issue with regard to the expertise- the garage trade traditionally pays peanuts because the vast majority of nut'n'bolt work could be done by a mildly sensible monkey, there's always mechanics available if you need to hire another so they're still paying the same wages and expecting a skilled technician, which isn't going to happen. The people who understand these systems take their skills elsewhere in industry where they're paid a proper wage for what they know.....now I suspect it wouldn't take 3 days to reprogramme a key fob, more like 3 minutes if the person doing the reprogramming is trained how to do it.

Regarding the cost of these bits, that's just greed- these modules are knocked out for next to nothing. The prices will come down, look at how much, or actually how little, bits for computers cost these days. There will be people with the requisite skills and knowledge who can make a living from fixing these things.
1968 Triumph Vitesse Mk1 2 litre convertible, Junior Miss rusty has a 1989 998cc Mk2 Metro, Mrs Rusty has a modern common rail diesel thing.
suffolkpete
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Re: next generation classic owners

#29 Post by suffolkpete »

mr rusty wrote:but that's essentially an industry training issue with regard to the expertise- the garage trade traditionally pays peanuts because the vast majority of nut'n'bolt work could be done by a mildly sensible monkey, there's always mechanics available if you need to hire another so they're still paying the same wages and expecting a skilled technician, which isn't going to happen. The people who understand these systems take their skills elsewhere in industry where they're paid a proper wage for what they know.....now I suspect it wouldn't take 3 days to reprogramme a key fob, more like 3 minutes if the person doing the reprogramming is trained how to do it.

Regarding the cost of these bits, that's just greed- these modules are knocked out for next to nothing. The prices will come down, look at how much, or actually how little, bits for computers cost these days. There will be people with the requisite skills and knowledge who can make a living from fixing these things.
You're right about the training, but the motor trade has no incentive to change things, they can make fat profits from the gullible public as they are. I don't see the prices coming down, the computer industry is a completely different ball game, with a lot of general purpose modules and fierce competition in a much bigger market. Computers are a prime example of the "chuck it away because it's not worth fixing" mentality anyway. Motor manufacturers charge silly prices because they are a monopoly and can get away with it.
1974 Rover 2200 SC
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kevin
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Re: next generation classic owners

#30 Post by kevin »

I must admit that if i see trim bits for any of my old cars i tend to get them, esp if they are new and shiney. Can always be sold if the vehicle goes. I have a project wolsely 6110 that i have a complete front and rear bumper (brand spanker new) as well as 5 new steel wheels and loads of new engine bits for. Thats as well as a load of new old honda stuff!
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